wrong for america to spy on germany, but the not okay for -- it's okay for germany to spy on one of its nato allies, estonia. >> sorry. that's not germany versus the u.s. >> that he is they're small so it makes it all right? >> it is smaller, not as important for the world scene. but my point is that some of the german companies have a right to be outraged and angry at the u.s. they've got very, very good competitive technology that they're working with and if there'ses spee nash on an industrial level, they've got a right to be angry. >> they should be angry about the chinese espionage on germany which is colossal and we've seen no signs so far that the americans are spying on german companies for the competitive advantage of american companies. you see a lot of that in the chinese state espionage services spying on all sorts of western countries, stealing their services and taking them to china and trying to replicate them. it's distracted from the serious stuff which is about cyber crime, which is huge. >> i completely agree with that point. you know, i think we're losing the fundamental